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"Once Save Always Save", Agree kau?
- Thread starter dennisegarcia
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either something is physical or not, when you take it, an action is taken.
even if it's spiritual when you receive something, an effort is given. it is impossible for something to be received without an action from the receiver (physically and spiritually).
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i couldn't agree more with juantamad's deduction that salvation is not something that is received, like accepting jesus. as he mentioned, no one seeks god. therefore, it is god who does the action. he elects. it's not a matter for you to receive or to deny. but it is god;s action. once elected, you are saved.
even your faith is not of your doing. jesus is the author of it and perfecter of it, according to the bible.
Dahil gumagaw ka ng iyong sariling doctrine... gawa ka na rin ng sarili mong Bible. Mas ginugulo mo lang ang usapan. Opinyon mo yan, kaya wala na akong pakialam kung yan ang paninidigan mo.
Napaka simple ng salitang 'grace'. Iwan ko kung anong effort ang ginawa mo kung tatanggapin mo ang isang bagay bilang totoo. Kung maniniwala ako na ang mundo ay triangle, anong effort ba ang ginawa ko? Accepting that the earth is triangle is an effort? Basahin mo ang Romans chapter 4. Si Paul na ang nag-explain sayo diyan. Kung di mo pa maiintindihan ang ibig sabihin doon, wala na akong magagawa.
Dahil gumagaw ka ng iyong sariling doctrine... gawa ka na rin ng sarili mong Bible. Mas ginugulo mo lang ang usapan. Opinyon mo yan, kaya wala na akong pakialam kung yan ang paninidigan mo.
Napaka simple ng salitang 'grace'. Iwan ko kung anong effort ang ginawa mo kung tatanggapin mo ang isang bagay bilang totoo. Kung maniniwala ako na ang mundo ay triangle, anong effort ba ang ginawa ko? Accepting that the earth is triangle is an effort? Basahin mo ang Romans chapter 4. Si Paul na ang nag-explain sayo diyan. Kung di mo pa maiintindihan ang ibig sabihin doon, wala na akong magagawa.
ewww.... hindi po ako gumagawa ng sarili kong doktrina. you were thinking na dahil you agree with some people about something in the bible, e ikaw ang tama. ridiculous. ano yan, the more na naniniwala, the more na tama?
grace ---- unmerited favor.
it means, the person given the salvation has nothing to do with how he was saved. he was chosen. that's just it. he (the one saved) need not receive it. he was elected. for receiving something requires the receiver an action, e.i. receive (verb).
moreover, the bible did not say that you receive the gift of salvation. you created that doctrine. it's god who elects. you do not receive.
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Char ka naman... may English lesson ka pah. Haha!
Medjo mahaba tong explanation ko. Pero dahil naghahanap ka ng katotohanan, basahin mo na. Isipin mo nalang napagod din ako sa pagsulat nito. Hehehe!
Ok, here are the things that you must take note in reading the Bible
1.Yes it is true that God elects, but it is our own decision that counts here. Hence everyone was even called to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost (not which was elected, but those who are lost). Luke 19:10
According to Romans 3:10, Romans 6:23, 3:23. All are lost.
2. Romans 10:17 states that 'So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing the Word of God.' A person must hear the sharing of the Gospel. See also Ephesians 1:13.
When we say 'elect' it is when we hear the true Gospel repents for our sins and accept Christ to get saved. We can never say a person is elected if he rejects Christ. A person must hear the sharing of the Gospel first,admit and repent for his sins then accept Christ as his Savior to get saved. Anyone must go through this process.
3. Believing and trusting are often used synonymously in the Bible especially when referring to Recieving/accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior. John 1:12; John 3:16; Romans 10:9; Acts 8:34-39.
Although these words are technically verbs, they are Not used as an action performed to contribute on something but rather as a sign of willingness to accept and enjoy the benefits of the gift being given. Thus, it still supports the Doctrine of Salvation by "grace".
'Repent' is also a verb but it is an action that cannot be seen, only its results. Repentance is when we feel sorry and ashamed, regrets of our sins,ask for forgiveness from God and decide not to do it again and to correct if there's anything needed to be corrected. It is a changed of mind about what you did. The result is 'you try not to do those things again'.
(paki-try mo nga e-google ang 'repent')
4.Romans 5:6-8."Christ died for the ungodly (not just for the elected)."
Example:
Ganito lang yan, an employee who often comes late plus erroneous works was asked if he will accept His promotion as the new company CEO. He responded No, because he knows that he is unworthy of the promotion. But if he accepts the promotion, tell me if nasan ang effort jan? He may accept it or not, the fact stays the same, He is unworthy of the promotion.
Yan ang grace--"unmerited favor".
Jesus, the Son of God, out of His love to me stooped to become a man and die to make me righteous in the eyes of God.. Yes, I accepted Him as my only Savior. I am justified and declared righteous before God. Yet, the fact remains, that I am not worthy to be called righteous for I am a sick,wicked,sinner. So helpless to save myself.
5. The only way we can give contribution or gain merit for our salvation is to live a perfect sinless life which is impossible for us. We are weak and helpless.
Ito pa ang additional explanation ko sa iyo. I can sense that you longed for the truth and it is my sole responsibility to deliver to you nothing but the truth. Please read the verse that I am going to give.
===If man be by nature just with God, to what end should the Saviour die? "The just for the unjust" 1Peter 3:18.
I can understand; but the "just dying for the just" were a double injustice—an injustice that the just should be punished at all, and another injustice that the just should be punished for them.
If Christ died, it must be because there was a penalty to be paid for sin committed, hence he must have died for those who had committed the sin. If Christ died, it must have been because "a fountain filled with blood" was necessary for the cleansing away of heinous stains; hence, it must have been for those who are defiled,corrupted and sinful men. Hebrews 9:22.
Suppose there should be found anywhere in this world an unfallen man—perfectly innocent of all actual sin, and free from any tendency to it, there would be a superfluity of cruelty in the crucifixion of the innocent Christ for such an individual. What need has he that Christ should die for him, when he has in his own innocence the right to live? If there be found beneath the copes of heaven an individual who, notwithstanding some former slips and flaws, can yet, by future diligence, completely justify himself before God, then it is clear that there is no need for Christ to die for him. I would not insult him by telling him that Christ died for him, for he would reply to me, "Why should he? Cannot I make myself just without him?" In the very nature of things it must be so, that if Christ Jesus dies he must die for the ungodly. Therefore, accepting/believing/trusting Christ as your savior cannot be considered a merit or a contribution, or an action taken to obtain salvation but rather just the acceptance of the truth that we cannot save ourselves, and we are sinners and we desperately need a Savior.
Sana naman binabasa mo talaga ang mga verse na ibinigay ko sa iyo, para naman magkakaintindihan tayo.
Acts 16:30-31. verse 30." And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Ano sagot nila?
"Wala kang gagawin, at wala kang magagawa kasi ang Dios ang pipili kung sino ang ililigtas niya."
verse 31. "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." This is a clear demonstration of Ephesians 2:8.
Kung sasabihin niya 'NO, I will not believe that Christ is our Savior", sa tingin mo maliligtas siya? Siyempre hindi, diba.
Base sa answer ng mga apostles.. Sino sa tingin mo ang tama sa atin?
Isa pang supporting verse. John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever "believeth" on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Hindi sinabi jan na whosoever was elected, diba.
God did not sent His only begotten Son to die a horrible death just for the sake of the few elects, but rather for the whole world.
He is the author and the finisher...simply means He is the OBJECT of our faith. He is whom we have to trust and believe. Aside from Him, we can never find salvation. Acts.4:12.
Sana klaro na sayo at sa mga ka-Sb natin. Thank you.
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huh? anong english lesson ang sinasabi mo dyan?
hmmmm..
you inserted this phrase "not which was elected, but those who are lost" which i understood to be your opinion on the verse. however, who are the lost ones? arent they the sheep who have gone awry? they are not the goats. they are the sheep.
if they are the sheep, then, they are the elected ones. for how could they be called sheep, if they were not in the first place elected as such? unless, election happens when a person "decides" as you have always been saying, to receive the gift.
oh, so i was correct to think that you believe that election happens when one repents and accepts christ. so, it then would be a man's pride to select god and be elected by god when one decides to repents. unscrupulous!
Eph.1:4
"According as HE hath CHOSEN US in Him before the foundations of the world, 'that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. According to the GOOD PLEASURE of HIS WILL.
that crushed your belief that you are chosen because you decided to be forgiven and to accept christ. the verses say that god elects before the foundation of the world, according to his pleasure and will, not because of your action.
furthermore, jesus is the author of your faith, therefore, your faith is not of your doing, jesus is. for even if you listen to the gospel everyday, if you ears are not circumcised, as aptly stated in acts 7:51, it is of no use. for no one seeks god! (romans 3:11)
nahhh...
you are saved by grace. god's action, not man's. through faith, which also is from god for jesus is the author of your faith.
therefore, by grace through faith has nothing to do with man. it is all god's.
hmmmm.. let me clear this.
who are the ungodly?
everyone. for all have sinned and fll short to the glory of god. moreover, no one seeks god. therefore, all are ungodly. even the elects ones. how could the elect ones be ungodly? because they do not seek god, they fall short to god's measurement.
but because they are elected, god needed to provide them their salvation. for how could they be elected to salvation if there is no way for salvation for them?
then, god, who elected them provided their salvation.
jesus died for his sheep
jesus died for many
jesus died for those his father has given him
jesus died for his church
i did not believe that jesus died for the just, for no one is just. therefore, he died for the sinners. and those sinners were the elected ones, as explained above.
this has been explained above. election by god's will and pleasure. not of man's action.
Isa pang supporting verse. John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever "believeth" on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Hindi sinabi jan na whosoever was elected, diba.
God did not sent His only begotten Son to die a horrible death just for the sake of the few elects, but rather for the whole world.
He is the author and the finisher...simply means He is the OBJECT of our faith. He is whom we have to trust and believe. Aside from Him, we can never find salvation. Acts.4:12.
Sana klaro na sayo at sa mga ka-Sb natin. Thank you.
thank you also. i hope you read my response.
==
"not which was elected, but those who are lost"
I put it there to emphasize that God wants everyone to be saved. God wants everyone to turn to Him. 'Yes all are lost, and Jesus seeks all of us.'
"i did not believe that jesus died for the just, for no one is just. therefore, he died for the sinners. and those sinners were the elected ones, as explained above."
Ang gulo mo naman, sabi mo all are lost ngaun sabi mo naman those sinner are the elected ones. so how about the non-elected? are they not sinners also?
when a man repents for his sins and go back to God? how come it is pride? inaamin mo na nga na nagkasala ka, pride pa din yun?
===============
"According as HE hath CHOSEN US in Him before the foundations of the world, 'that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. According to the GOOD PLEASURE of HIS WILL."
that crushed your belief that you are chosen because you decided to be forgiven and to accept christ. the verses say that god elects before the foundation of the world, according to his pleasure and will, not because of your action.
=============================
This is what happen when reading the Bible and interprets the passages with your own opinions.
Eph 1:4... you made a wrong explanation on this. Please read it again from the fisrt verse of the chapter. and try to analyze the context of the verse not just pick them to support what is already in your mind.
Medjo buzy ako ngaun kasi night shift ako. Nakapuslit lang ako ng access ngaun kaya naka reply ako. I will give my explanation on this later. I never thought we would come this far.
We are now discussing " the doctrine of Predestination by election" but you're following the Calvinistic view which is the wrong view regarding this doctrine. So as of now, I encourage you to read again ephesians chapter one.
By the way, maitanong ko lang from what denomination ka belong?
Be ryt back on this later. Thank you.
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thank you for your quick reply
"wants" and "will" have differences in meaning.
god wants/desires but he wont save them all.
hindi naman magulo e.
it's like this.
before the creation of the world, god predestined some to salvation.
when the human race was created, they fall to transgression.
and being a fallen creature, they were lost. they never seek god.
and god, who is "just" and "loving" and "merciful" needed to provide a way to salvage those he had chosen.
and he provided christ.
christ died for the sinners. the sinners who were elected even before they came into existence.
man do not go back to god. it is god who comes to man. i thought you forget.... no one seeks god.
you explain. ill wait for your explanation.
i understand your predicament.
reply ka lang kung may time ka. i am the same anyways,
i am an atheist
but once a theist.
this, however, does not stop me from sharing things i believed to be truer when it comes to bible.
thank you for your quick reply
"wants" and "will" have differences in meaning.
god wants/desires but he wont save them all.
hindi naman magulo e.
it's like this.
before the creation of the world, god predestined some to salvation.
when the human race was created, they fall to transgression.
and being a fallen creature, they were lost. they never seek god.
and god, who is "just" and "loving" and "merciful" needed to provide a way to salvage those he had chosen.
and he provided Christ.
Christ died for the sinners. the sinners who were elected even before they came into existence.
man do not go back to god. it is god who comes to man. i thought you forget.... no one seeks god.
you explain. ill wait for your explanation.
i understand your predicament.
anyways,
i am an atheist
but once a theist.
this, however, does not stop me from sharing things i believed to be truer when it comes to bible.
Oh, you're an atheist pala.
'this, however, does not stop me from sharing things i believed to be truer when it comes to bible.'
Yes, this is what you believed to be truer but it's not the truth.
Matanong ko lang, kung binasa mo ba uli ang Ephesians chapter one, at wala ka bang napansin?
Hint: The doctrine of predestination written by Paul to the church of Ephesus was never intended for sinners. (people who haven't accepted Christ yet as their Savior.) Hence he addressed it to the churches of Ephesus (saved and baptized believers).
Kaya pala ang hirap mo makaintinde, ahaha! The doctrine of predestination deals with man's free will and sovereignty of God,and is really hard to understand especially to those who don't believe in God. 2Corinthians 4:3.
Kaya if ever pag namatay ka at sa imperno ang bagsak mo, kasalan mo yan because you rejected Christ and even God not because God planned that you should be there.
===
"god wants/desires but he wont save them all."
'before the creation of the world, god predestined some to salvation.'
====================================
This idea is nowhere found in the Bible.
my answer on this is 2Peter 3:9. It was God's sovereign plan to save mankind, but not all will be saved because some will reject His Son. John 3:36
God would never predestined someone to be in Hell. If someone ended up in Hell it is because they reject God's way of salvation which is to believe and trust in Jesus.
2nd. Hint: if a soul is found in Hell and asked why he is there,?
the Bible did not say anything that a person is in Hell because he is destined to be there. A single soul worth more than the world, even the angels in heaven rejoiced in one single soul that comes to repentance. How much more God will rejoice in that?
Yan ang isa sa mga problema ng Calvinistic view (your view), because this view undermines all the Biblical passages that invites sinners to repent and cling to Christ.
3rd Hint. Repentance and salvation is always intended for sinners, Jude even encouraged the Christians to compel people, Jude 23.
Jesus' invitation on salvation was always addressed to anyone, and his teachings we always found the condition statement (if, unless,except, but and etc).
Let's take a brief recall of Israel's history, God's chosen people. How God dealt with his chosen people will give us and idea about God's way and his sovereign will.
It was never God's will to let the Babylonians capture Israel,thus He sent Jeremiah to compel them to turn from their sin, idols, and they reject God's voice through Jeremiah.
But His Sovereign plan for Israel was never changed. Whatever God will say will come to pass, it will come to pass. Thus he used Daniel and his friends to prophecy the 70 weeks(70 years of Jeremiah) and it was Ezra and Nehemiah did God used to restore the wall of Jerusalem. Whenever God's anger kindled against the Israelites, he always gave them assurance that "He will not destroy them utterly." So that all His plan will happen according to His will. (did you notice something here?)
Try to read Nehemiah chapter 9:28-38 . in verse 32. The names of peolple so important was not mentioned but Nehemiah knew thier name was the basis of God choosing Israel to become His people.
Now read Leviticus chapter 26. in verse 14, God started the condition statement 'But if'. and the proceeding verses are the lists of things that will going to happen to Israel if they won''t (it is not that they can't do it. but they willingly refused to) meet the condition. In verse 40-41, God's mercy is illustrated but again in a condition, the verse starts with an 'if'. Now in verse 42, the very important names Nehemiah was trying to recall. Now please continue reading the chapter until the last verse.
(did you find a hint?)
Now back to Paul the writer of Ephesians and Romans.
Paul will never pray for salvation of others if he believed some people are destined to be saved. (Romans chapter 10).
but never salvation and repentance associated with predestination,,.. and it is not hard to notice that when we found the idea of predestination, we always notice that the teaching is addressed to the churches.
I hope this will make things lighter to you. But still I encouraged you to read Ephesians chapter one again even until chapter two. Dapat kasi sa pag-study ng Bible ay basahin ang buong chapter or the whole book to undertand the whole and true context ng mga verses. Yan ang problema ng ibang Bible readers na pick-verse lang, kaya tuloy naguguluhan sila sa pag-intindi.
I will add my explanation later for more details. My hinahabol kasi kami deadline sa office kaya ito lang muna ang reply ko. I will go back on this as soon as i can.
Thank you.
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truer is in comparative degree. you might be preaching a truth but im telling you a truer interpretation of it.
i did not. sorry. i am waiting for you na ibigay mo ang points mo sa epehsians then i could lay may points as well.
i was once a believer. i had thesame thinking as you have. but anyway, how could you reconcile free will and the sovereignty of god?
i thought "thy will be done".
if and only if your version of god is true or the true god. what if ra, who was the embodiment of the all the gods and goddesses of the ancient egpyth is the true god, from whom the jews have copied their ideas of god, from which the xtian also copied their idea of god?
moreover, lahat ay pupunta sa impyerno. for the old and the new testament meant hell as grave.
the word did not have to be present in the bible to be considered biblical. when the concept nd the idea is there, it is biblical.
and how could you say the idea is not found in the bible? i think you are not reading my posts. please reread my earlier posts. the idea is already there.
understand that it is not you who chooses god... for NO ONE SEEKS god. if it is not possible for man to choose god, then it must be god who chooses man.
pls lay down your case. dont give hints whatsover, but put down your points.
check you ideas. you seem to be contradicting yourself.
I hope this will make things lighter to you. But still I encouraged you to read Ephesians chapter one again even until chapter two. Dapat kasi sa pag-study ng Bible ay basahin ang buong chapter or the whole book to undertand the whole and true context ng mga verses. Yan ang problema ng ibang Bible readers na pick-verse lang, kaya tuloy naguguluhan sila sa pag-intindi.
I will add my explanation later for more details. My hinahabol kasi kami deadline sa office kaya ito lang muna ang reply ko. I will go back on this as soon as i can.
Thank you.
check you ideas. you seem to be contradicting yourself.
Hah? Contradicting or hindi mo lang binasa ng tama, or hindi mo
talaga naiintindihan, or wala ka lang masagot sa argument kung
ito.
==========
truer is in comparative degree. you might be preaching a truth
but im telling you a truer interpretation of it.
=========
'your interpretation is truer' it's your assumption. i know the
word is comparative. (english lesson na naman)
==========
i did not. sorry. i am waiting for you na ibigay mo ang points
mo sa epehsians then i could lay may points as well.
==========
Mas mabuti sana kung binasa mo para mas maliwanagan ka.
=========
i was once a believer. i had thesame thinking as you have. but
anyway, how could you reconcile free will and the sovereignty
of god? i thought "thy will be done".
=========
i'm sorry but we don't have the same thinking, reconcile? hindi
sila dapat ereconcile kasi hindi naman sila contradicting.Mali
lang pagkakaintindi mo sa Bible kaya 'akala' mo lang na
contradicting.
=======================
if and only if your version of god is true or the true god.
what if ra, who was the embodiment of the all the gods and
goddesses of the ancient egpyth is the true god, from whom the
jews have copied their ideas of god, from which the xtian also
copied their idea of god?
=========================
copied? it was God who delivered them from the land of Egypt.
it was God who personlly talked to Moses at Mt. Senai, nabasa
mo ba ang Genesis to Deutoronomy? Bakit sila mangongopya kung
kasama nila ang Dios (in the form of pillar of fire in the
night and cloud during the day.) It was God who give them the
Ten Commandments, and it was God who lead them in the
wilderness and supply their needs.
Kaya ko pinabasa sayo ang Leviticus at Nehemiah to give you an
idea that free will and God's sovereignty is not contradicting
with each other. Kaya lang di mo binasa. So tantanungin mo ako
kung pano ma-reconcile? Is it God's plan and will that you
don't read the Bible and reject Him? No, it was your choice.
You choose to believe in Scienve and Logic and reasoning.
kung di mo nabasa ang Genesis to Deutoronomy, then you have no
idea about the will of God and his sovereignty in the first
place. kaya pala napakamali ng interpretation mo.
you said you're once a believer? saang simbahan ka ba galing?
"god wants/desires but he wont save them all."
'before the creation of the world, god predestined some to
salvation.'
=====================================
the word did not have to be present in the bible to be
considered biblical. when the concept nd the idea is there, it
is biblical.
Hindi ko sinabi 'word'. Sinabi ko idea. 'This IDEA is nowhere
found in the Bible. Therefore it's not Biblical. Ang hirap kasi
sa kausap kung hindi nakikinig. Basahin mo naman ng mabuti ang
sinulat ko.
==============
understand that it is not you who chooses god... for NO ONE
SEEKS god. if it is not possible for man to choose god, then it
must be god who chooses man
==============
Yes, no one seeks God. Pero hindi sinabi na No one Chooses God.
Seek and choose is entirely differnent things; I thought you
are good in English. You're just assuming that seek and choose
is the same in this matter.
'impossible for man to choose god,' Another assumption. I
thought you athiest don't like assumptions, you want facts,
pero ayaw mo basahin ang Bible para makita mo mismo kung ano
ang talagang nakasulat doon.
John 15:16
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," Jesus did not
mean to say that I chosed you to be saved. He is telling the
Apostles, that He chose them to accomplished a special task.
Kaya nga mahalaga sa pagbasa ng Bible ay basahin ang buong
chapter para malaman ang context ng mga verses. They are given
a special calling. They are Apostles of Christ. It is Jesus who
picked his disciples. They are ordained and chosen to go, to
preach the Gospel, and to baptize the believers and teach them
the will of God. Need a verse? Mattew 28:16-20. That is the
great commssion. Teach all nation, not the elected.
The complete verse: John 15:16.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
THAT YE SHOULD GO AND BRING FORTH FRUIT, and that your fruit
should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my
name, he may give it you.
God is the one who seeks, it is correct,, How did God seeks?
Through His Son Jesus Christ (Luke19:10),and he offer the gift
of salvation through preaching the Word of God. Therefore it's
ours to choose. Romans 10:9-17.
pls lay down your case. dont give hints whatsover, but put down
your points.
Even if I'll lay down my case immediately, it will be of no
meaning since you're not reading the verses that I'm giving
you. Without reading the Bible, it is imposibble for us to know
the will of God, you'd only be giving assumptions.
========
Okay, here's my explanation. Sa Ephesians, partial lang muna
ito. I will add more next time, to give you time to review
Ephesians.
Chapter 1.
1.Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the
saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ
Jesus:
The letter was addressed to the saints at Ephesus. Meaning,
these people are co-believers of Christ, those who have faith
in Christ. Members of the Church which are at Ephesus. Is 'the
saints' really meant the believers? Need a verse? 1 Cor.6:9-11.
Therefore the lost sinners, has nothing to do with this letter.
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the
Lord Jesus Christ.
Here is the formal greetings which is common to Christians.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who
hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places
in Christ:
Now Paul is praising God, the one who hath blessed us(the
believers),those who now belongs to Christ) with spiritual
blessings.
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
him in love:
As these spiritual blessings were prepared even before the
foundation of the world, before the creation, just as(According
as) he hath chosen us that we should live a godly, holy and
blameless life. (not necessarily perfect and without sin) but a
life that is lived for God.
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by
Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his
will,
One of the blessings that a believer will recieve is the
blessing of adoption in the family of God. Once a person is
already in Christ, he will automatically counted as a member of
the family of God, a blessing which God was preparing before
the foundation of the world, but of course only to those who
are IN CHRIST. This is only through Christ. An unbeliever will
never recieve this blessing. Only those who recieve His Son.
Need a verse on this? John 1:12.
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made
us accepted in the beloved.
Jesus the Son is the beloved of God, a sinner will never be
accepted by God until he is in Christ. 'he hath made us'. Jesus
made the believer accepted. it did not say, 'he hath elected
us'. Even if you say 'made' and 'elect' can be synonimous here,
the fact remains, those who are accepted are those who are only
in Christ. Hence, Paul sent this letter to the saints at
Ephesus.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness
of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
A person is redeemed through his blood, in the cross as
forgiveness of our sins. This according the his riches of his
grace.
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and
prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according
to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Now, us(the believers) knew the will of God, through the
guidance of the Holy Spirit and His Word which is the Power and
Wisdom of God, according to his pleasure which he already
planned.
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in
heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
This is the mystery of God's will. That in the right time, all
who are IN CHRIST, (believers), in heaven(those who haved
died), those who are still alive, even in him.
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being
predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all
things after the counsel of his own will:
Those who are member of the family of God, are predestinated
according to his purpose and his will. We are predestinated to
what? to be saved? No. Romans 8:16-17. We are predestined to
suffer with Him. Preaching of the Gospel and serving God
invloves sacrifices, unbelieving people, mockers, hard-earned
money spent to support God's ministry, and other factors that
could make preaching the Gospel more difficult like, financial
and phycial problems, and family matters. Sa ibang bansa bawal
pa nga ang pag-babasa ng Bible.
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first
trusted in Christ.
We(believers) are predistinated to be the praise of his
Glory.To praise and to worship him, to walk by
his commandments,who of course must first trust in Jesus Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of
truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye
believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Another blessing, after hearing the preaching of the Gospel, we
are sanctified, justified, we are adopted, and we are sealed.
The Holy Spirit whom Jesus promised before we went back to
heaven after the ressurection. Need a verse? John 14:16-20.
Eph.1:1-13.
This is not a challenge to those who are elect for salvation.
It is a charge that the elect in Christ might be the
manifestation of Christ in this world. A charge to the elect to
the service that they are chosen for now that they are 'in
Christ.' Thirdly we are elect in Him as a people to be the
temple of the Holy Spirit of God in this world. The Spirit that
reproves the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment
dwells only in the elect. It does not dwell in one prior to
salvation and no one prior to salvation can hold the title of
'elect.'
============
In Paul's time, Ephesus is a placed where people worhipped many
gods, and the Christians are really having a hrad time in
proclaiming the Gospel.
Nowhere in Scripture is an individual elected to be in Christ.
But those that are in Christ are ELECT.
Only One Foreordained before the foundation of the World
18 “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with
corruptible things,as silver and gold, from your vain
conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without
blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the
foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times
for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the
dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in
God.” (1Pet 1:18-21)
It is very clear in this passages that since no one seeks God,
then He assigned someone to make people turn to God.
proclaiming to them the Gospel and opened the way of salvation.
Eph 2:10 says “For we are his workmanship, created in
Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained
that weshould walk in them.”) One does not get in by election
(John 3:14-19),but once 'in', one is elect and tasked to
service.
=================
Now, sa Old Testament tayo.
Israel was elect, a chosen nation, a chosen people. They were
elect to do three major deeds;
- to deliver the Messiah to humanity;
- to deliver the written precepts of God to mankind; and
- to show monotheism to the whole world.
First, through Israel we trace the chosen seed.
Why Israel was chosen? are they predestined? No.
They are chosen because of Abraham. Abraham>Isaac>Jacob which
is Israel.
For Abraham believed God and it is counted for him as
righteousness therefore he is blessed to be the father of many.
It was God's promise to deliver the Messiah from the seed of
Abraham. By Christ, all believer will be part of Abraham's
family, God's chosen people. Again, election is for service not
unto salvation.
In Moses time, they themselves made covenant with God in
Mt.Senai, and in Joshua's time, they are given the freedom to
chose who they are going to serve. But Jushua said "But as for
me and my house, we will serve the Lord".
As we can see in the lives of the Israelites, they are the ones
who always break the coventant of God, that's why they lost
many battles and held captive by hostile nation, and it was God
who always finds a way to continue his plan, that's why he sent
prophets, apoint kings, and ordained judges. God will never let
Israel to be erased from the face of the Earth because of his
promise to Abraham (yan ang 'thy wil be done').
Jonah was predestined by God to preach unto Nineveh, even if he
want to escape, he ended up in the belly of a giant fish and
brought to Nineveh to preach there. Predestination is of
service. All the people in the Nineveh would be going to hell
if God did not sent Jonah there (thy will be done pa rin). The
Scripture said that the people in Nineveh repented (free will).
Mababasa mo yun sa mga verse na binigay ko sa iyo. God's
soverignity and man's free will not be contradicting. Kung
binasa mo sana, di mas naiintindihan mo.
============
Sabi mo, accept and repent are works because they are verb.
Here's the proof that in the Bible they are not counted as
workd. Para hindi mag-assume na naman, dahil sa english lesson
mo.
Romans Chapter 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining
to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to
glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it
was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace,
but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that
justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man,
unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or
upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was
reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in
uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the
righteousness of the faith which he had yet being
uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that
believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness
might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the
circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith
of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world,
was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but
through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made
void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is
no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the
end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only
which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of
Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many
nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth
the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they
were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the
father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So
shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body
now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet
the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but
was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was
able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was
imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe
on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for
our justification.
Yan, ang apostle Paul na mismo nag explain sayo na hindi work
and pag-accept kay Jesus Christ. Hindi mo kasi binabasa ka
hindi ka maka-intindi.
==================
moreover, lahat ay pupunta sa impyerno. for the old and the new
testament meant hell as grave.
At first, i thought you understand something from the Bible,
but looking at this argument, parang sinasabi mo na wala ka
talagang alam sa Bible.
=============
Anyway, ito ang sagot.
Luke 16:19-31 proves that hell is a place of torment. At wag mo
sabihin na parable ito, dahil hindi sinabi dyan na parable nga
lang yan. Una, the name Lazarus is given, God knows who are his
(believers),Ikalawa Abraham is mentioned, Jesus would never
used a name if it is indeed a parable, Third, Jesus did not
give further explanation regarding the story to indicated that
it is indeed a parable. Revelation 20:10 gives us the
description about Hell.
Akala ko maglaing sa reason and logic ang mga atis?
Ito ang logic:
God would never send his Son to die a shameful and brutal death
to save mankind from the grave. Jesus and his apostles would
never preach the Gospel to mankind just to prevent them from
going to the grave. The preacing of repentance would be so
meaningless if we repent just to avoid the cemetery.
I know there are lot of passages in the Bible where Sheol is
the term used for the grave, but like i told you, read the
entire chapter or even the entire book to understand the real
context of the Verses.
===============
How about the Omniscience of God? Did he know already those who
will be saved? Yes, he knew everthing.
How come it is free will when he knew already.?
Here's the explanation.
Before the creation, the all knowing God knew who are the
people that will accept his Son. People who realized their
sins, by the preaching of the word, they repent and accepted
the gift of salvation through Christ. Therefore before even
before the creation, God already prepared the heavenly
blessings mentioned in Ephesians chapter 1, to be recieved by
those who will recieve his Son.
======================
Magbasa ka muna, bago ka sumagot. Para naman may maibigay kang
supporting verse,magbibigay ka nga ng verse, mali naman ang
interpretation mo, at para naman hindi assumption lang ang
sinasagot mo.
Yan na muna sa ngayon. I want to see what will be your points
on this. Thanks.
Hah? Contradicting or hindi mo lang binasa ng tama, or hindi mo
talaga naiintindihan, or wala ka lang masagot sa argument kung
ito.
==========
truer is in comparative degree. you might be preaching a truth
but im telling you a truer interpretation of it.
=========
'your interpretation is truer' it's your assumption. i know the
word is comparative. (english lesson na naman)
==========
i did not. sorry. i am waiting for you na ibigay mo ang points
mo sa epehsians then i could lay may points as well.
==========
Mas mabuti sana kung binasa mo para mas maliwanagan ka.
=========
i was once a believer. i had thesame thinking as you have. but
anyway, how could you reconcile free will and the sovereignty
of god? i thought "thy will be done".
=========
i'm sorry but we don't have the same thinking, reconcile? hindi
sila dapat ereconcile kasi hindi naman sila contradicting.Mali
lang pagkakaintindi mo sa Bible kaya 'akala' mo lang na
contradicting.
=======================
if and only if your version of god is true or the true god.
what if ra, who was the embodiment of the all the gods and
goddesses of the ancient egpyth is the true god, from whom the
jews have copied their ideas of god, from which the xtian also
copied their idea of god?
=========================
copied? it was God who delivered them from the land of Egypt.
it was God who personlly talked to Moses at Mt. Senai, nabasa
mo ba ang Genesis to Deutoronomy? Bakit sila mangongopya kung
kasama nila ang Dios (in the form of pillar of fire in the
night and cloud during the day.) It was God who give them the
Ten Commandments, and it was God who lead them in the
wilderness and supply their needs.
Kaya ko pinabasa sayo ang Leviticus at Nehemiah to give you an
idea that free will and God's sovereignty is not contradicting
with each other. Kaya lang di mo binasa. So tantanungin mo ako
kung pano ma-reconcile? Is it God's plan and will that you
don't read the Bible and reject Him? No, it was your choice.
You choose to believe in Scienve and Logic and reasoning.
kung di mo nabasa ang Genesis to Deutoronomy, then you have no
idea about the will of God and his sovereignty in the first
place. kaya pala napakamali ng interpretation mo.
you said you're once a believer? saang simbahan ka ba galing?
"god wants/desires but he wont save them all."
'before the creation of the world, god predestined some to
salvation.'
=====================================
the word did not have to be present in the bible to be
considered biblical. when the concept nd the idea is there, it
is biblical.
Hindi ko sinabi 'word'. Sinabi ko idea. 'This IDEA is nowhere
found in the Bible. Therefore it's not Biblical. Ang hirap kasi
sa kausap kung hindi nakikinig. Basahin mo naman ng mabuti ang
sinulat ko.
==============
understand that it is not you who chooses god... for NO ONE
SEEKS god. if it is not possible for man to choose god, then it
must be god who chooses man
==============
Yes, no one seeks God. Pero hindi sinabi na No one Chooses God.
Seek and choose is entirely differnent things; I thought you
are good in English. You're just assuming that seek and choose
is the same in this matter.
'impossible for man to choose god,' Another assumption. I
thought you athiest don't like assumptions, you want facts,
pero ayaw mo basahin ang Bible para makita mo mismo kung ano
ang talagang nakasulat doon.
John 15:16
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," Jesus did not
mean to say that I chosed you to be saved. He is telling the
Apostles, that He chose them to accomplished a special task.
Kaya nga mahalaga sa pagbasa ng Bible ay basahin ang buong
chapter para malaman ang context ng mga verses. They are given
a special calling. They are Apostles of Christ. It is Jesus who
picked his disciples. They are ordained and chosen to go, to
preach the Gospel, and to baptize the believers and teach them
the will of God. Need a verse? Mattew 28:16-20. That is the
great commssion. Teach all nation, not the elected.
The complete verse: John 15:16.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
THAT YE SHOULD GO AND BRING FORTH FRUIT, and that your fruit
should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my
name, he may give it you.
God is the one who seeks, it is correct,, How did God seeks?
Through His Son Jesus Christ (Luke19:10),and he offer the gift
of salvation through preaching the Word of God. Therefore it's
ours to choose. Romans 10:9-17.
pls lay down your case. dont give hints whatsover, but put down
your points.
Even if I'll lay down my case immediately, it will be of no
meaning since you're not reading the verses that I'm giving
you. Without reading the Bible, it is imposibble for us to know
the will of God, you'd only be giving assumptions.
========
Okay, here's my explanation. Sa Ephesians, partial lang muna
ito. I will add more next time, to give you time to review
Ephesians.
Chapter 1.
1.Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the
saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ
Jesus:
The letter was addressed to the saints at Ephesus. Meaning,
these people are co-believers of Christ, those who have faith
in Christ. Members of the Church which are at Ephesus. Is 'the
saints' really meant the believers? Need a verse? 1 Cor.6:9-11.
Therefore the lost sinners, has nothing to do with this letter.
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the
Lord Jesus Christ.
Here is the formal greetings which is common to Christians.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who
hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places
in Christ:
Now Paul is praising God, the one who hath blessed us(the
believers),those who now belongs to Christ) with spiritual
blessings.
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
him in love:
As these spiritual blessings were prepared even before the
foundation of the world, before the creation, just as(According
as) he hath chosen us that we should live a godly, holy and
blameless life. (not necessarily perfect and without sin) but a
life that is lived for God.
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by
Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his
will,
One of the blessings that a believer will recieve is the
blessing of adoption in the family of God. Once a person is
already in Christ, he will automatically counted as a member of
the family of God, a blessing which God was preparing before
the foundation of the world, but of course only to those who
are IN CHRIST. This is only through Christ. An unbeliever will
never recieve this blessing. Only those who recieve His Son.
Need a verse on this? John 1:12.
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made
us accepted in the beloved.
Jesus the Son is the beloved of God, a sinner will never be
accepted by God until he is in Christ. 'he hath made us'. Jesus
made the believer accepted. it did not say, 'he hath elected
us'. Even if you say 'made' and 'elect' can be synonimous here,
the fact remains, those who are accepted are those who are only
in Christ. Hence, Paul sent this letter to the saints at
Ephesus.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness
of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
A person is redeemed through his blood, in the cross as
forgiveness of our sins. This according the his riches of his
grace.
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and
prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according
to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Now, us(the believers) knew the will of God, through the
guidance of the Holy Spirit and His Word which is the Power and
Wisdom of God, according to his pleasure which he already
planned.
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in
heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
This is the mystery of God's will. That in the right time, all
who are IN CHRIST, (believers), in heaven(those who haved
died), those who are still alive, even in him.
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being
predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all
things after the counsel of his own will:
Those who are member of the family of God, are predestinated
according to his purpose and his will. We are predestinated to
what? to be saved? No. Romans 8:16-17. We are predestined to
suffer with Him. Preaching of the Gospel and serving God
invloves sacrifices, unbelieving people, mockers, hard-earned
money spent to support God's ministry, and other factors that
could make preaching the Gospel more difficult like, financial
and phycial problems, and family matters. Sa ibang bansa bawal
pa nga ang pag-babasa ng Bible.
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first
trusted in Christ.
We(believers) are predistinated to be the praise of his
Glory.To praise and to worship him, to walk by
his commandments,who of course must first trust in Jesus Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of
truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye
believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Another blessing, after hearing the preaching of the Gospel, we
are sanctified, justified, we are adopted, and we are sealed.
The Holy Spirit whom Jesus promised before we went back to
heaven after the ressurection. Need a verse? John 14:16-20.
Eph.1:1-13.
This is not a challenge to those who are elect for salvation.
It is a charge that the elect in Christ might be the
manifestation of Christ in this world. A charge to the elect to
the service that they are chosen for now that they are 'in
Christ.' Thirdly we are elect in Him as a people to be the
temple of the Holy Spirit of God in this world. The Spirit that
reproves the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment
dwells only in the elect. It does not dwell in one prior to
salvation and no one prior to salvation can hold the title of
'elect.'
============
In Paul's time, Ephesus is a placed where people worhipped many
gods, and the Christians are really having a hrad time in
proclaiming the Gospel.
Nowhere in Scripture is an individual elected to be in Christ.
But those that are in Christ are ELECT.
Only One Foreordained before the foundation of the World
18 “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with
corruptible things,as silver and gold, from your vain
conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without
blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the
foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times
for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the
dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in
God.” (1Pet 1:18-21)
It is very clear in this passages that since no one seeks God,
then He assigned someone to make people turn to God.
proclaiming to them the Gospel and opened the way of salvation.
Eph 2:10 says “For we are his workmanship, created in
Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained
that weshould walk in them.”) One does not get in by election
(John 3:14-19),but once 'in', one is elect and tasked to
service.
=================
Now, sa Old Testament tayo.
Israel was elect, a chosen nation, a chosen people. They were
elect to do three major deeds;
- to deliver the Messiah to humanity;
- to deliver the written precepts of God to mankind; and
- to show monotheism to the whole world.
First, through Israel we trace the chosen seed.
Why Israel was chosen? are they predestined? No.
They are chosen because of Abraham. Abraham>Isaac>Jacob which
is Israel.
For Abraham believed God and it is counted for him as
righteousness therefore he is blessed to be the father of many.
It was God's promise to deliver the Messiah from the seed of
Abraham. By Christ, all believer will be part of Abraham's
family, God's chosen people. Again, election is for service not
unto salvation.
In Moses time, they themselves made covenant with God in
Mt.Senai, and in Joshua's time, they are given the freedom to
chose who they are going to serve. But Jushua said "But as for
me and my house, we will serve the Lord".
As we can see in the lives of the Israelites, they are the ones
who always break the coventant of God, that's why they lost
many battles and held captive by hostile nation, and it was God
who always finds a way to continue his plan, that's why he sent
prophets, apoint kings, and ordained judges. God will never let
Israel to be erased from the face of the Earth because of his
promise to Abraham (yan ang 'thy wil be done').
Jonah was predestined by God to preach unto Nineveh, even if he
want to escape, he ended up in the belly of a giant fish and
brought to Nineveh to preach there. Predestination is of
service. All the people in the Nineveh would be going to hell
if God did not sent Jonah there (thy will be done pa rin). The
Scripture said that the people in Nineveh repented (free will).
Mababasa mo yun sa mga verse na binigay ko sa iyo. God's
soverignity and man's free will not be contradicting. Kung
binasa mo sana, di mas naiintindihan mo.
============
Sabi mo, accept and repent are works because they are verb.
Here's the proof that in the Bible they are not counted as
workd. Para hindi mag-assume na naman, dahil sa english lesson
mo.
Romans Chapter 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining
to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to
glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it
was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace,
but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that
justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man,
unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or
upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was
reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in
uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the
righteousness of the faith which he had yet being
uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that
believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness
might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the
circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith
of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world,
was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but
through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made
void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is
no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the
end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only
which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of
Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many
nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth
the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they
were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the
father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So
shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body
now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet
the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but
was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was
able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was
imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe
on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for
our justification.
Yan, ang apostle Paul na mismo nag explain sayo na hindi work
and pag-accept kay Jesus Christ. Hindi mo kasi binabasa ka
hindi ka maka-intindi.
==================
moreover, lahat ay pupunta sa impyerno. for the old and the new
testament meant hell as grave.
At first, i thought you understand something from the Bible,
but looking at this argument, parang sinasabi mo na wala ka
talagang alam sa Bible.
=============
Anyway, ito ang sagot.
Luke 16:19-31 proves that hell is a place of torment. At wag mo
sabihin na parable ito, dahil hindi sinabi dyan na parable nga
lang yan. Una, the name Lazarus is given, God knows who are his
(believers),Ikalawa Abraham is mentioned, Jesus would never
used a name if it is indeed a parable, Third, Jesus did not
give further explanation regarding the story to indicated that
it is indeed a parable. Revelation 20:10 gives us the
description about Hell.
Akala ko maglaing sa reason and logic ang mga atis?
Ito ang logic:
God would never send his Son to die a shameful and brutal death
to save mankind from the grave. Jesus and his apostles would
never preach the Gospel to mankind just to prevent them from
going to the grave. The preacing of repentance would be so
meaningless if we repent just to avoid the cemetery.
I know there are lot of passages in the Bible where Sheol is
the term used for the grave, but like i told you, read the
entire chapter or even the entire book to understand the real
context of the Verses.
===============
How about the Omniscience of God? Did he know already those who
will be saved? Yes, he knew everthing.
How come it is free will when he knew already.?
Here's the explanation.
Before the creation, the all knowing God knew who are the
people that will accept his Son. People who realized their
sins, by the preaching of the word, they repent and accepted
the gift of salvation through Christ. Therefore before even
before the creation, God already prepared the heavenly
blessings mentioned in Ephesians chapter 1, to be recieved by
those who will recieve his Son.
======================
Magbasa ka muna, bago ka sumagot. Para naman may maibigay kang
supporting verse,magbibigay ka nga ng verse, mali naman ang
interpretation mo, at para naman hindi assumption lang ang
sinasagot mo.
Yan na muna sa ngayon. I want to see what will be your points
on this. Thanks.
Last edited:
awww.. you're using a phone. it almost occupied half of the page. it's ugly and it takes away the interest to read. but for your sake, ill labor for it. ill read it.
here are some questions for you:
do you believe that god predestined some to salvation?
if so, what was his basis for election?
am sorry, i did not mean to debase your wisdom or whatever in the english language or in any languages you know, i was just expressing my thought. and expression of ideas might, sometimes, hurt others
and... tht was not an assumption, that's actually is a better interpretation. what you thought to be an assumption is actually not an assumption and what you thought to be not an assumption is actually an assumption. to put it simply, your ideas are assumptions and mine are not
probably, pero i want your ideas first. and i would read it when you have laid your ideas.
eh?
you must be kidding!
if there is free will how could be god sovereign. and if god is sovereign, how could there be free will!
how do you understand god's sovereignty.... and man's free will?
oh, you did not know?
ancienty egypth was a center of civilization. philosphy, religion, flourished so much in there. since the time of joseph, the isralietes had been living in egypth. moses was raised egyptian... taught to read and write. and thus, his life was an influence of egyptians.
his idea of one god might have been an influence of akhenaten, the pharaoh who ruled egypth and believed in one god and spirituality.
the ten commandments has resemblance to the book of the dead moral codes
the ancient egyptian believed that human is dual. physical and spiritual... that when one dies, they are judged.
youll just have to answer my earlier questions.. what is god's sovereignty and what is free will. we'll delve in this.
tell your bible tht it's not biblical:
Rom 8:21-30 " For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Rom 9:15-16 " For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."
Rom 9:21 "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"
Rom 9:11-13 "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
John 1:12-13; 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
are you some kind of a stup*** idio*.
how could you choose god if you do not seek him?
just as(Accordingas) he hath chosen us that we should live a godly, holy and blameless life. (not necessarily perfect and without sin) but a life that is lived for God.
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
One of the blessings that a believer will recieve is the blessing of adoption in the family of God. Once a person is already in Christ, he will automatically counted as a member of the family of God, a blessing which God was preparing before the foundation of the world, but of course only to those who are IN CHRIST. This is only through Christ. An unbeliever will never recieve this blessing. Only those who recieve His Son. Need a verse on this? John 1:12.[/QUOTE]
will receive? dint you read the word "predestined"?
how did you understand the word "predestined?"
ay, nagiging technical semantic ka na ata. at nawala ata ang exegesis mo.
regarding ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:[/QUOTE]
an opening, obviously. a greetings to the saints of ephesus
well, just so to mention, paul made the distinction between god and lord, who are two different persons. god is not the lord as indicated by comma and 'and'
this god blessed them (us) jews and gentiles believers with spiritual blessing, gifts, through christ.
why were they given gifts through christ?
as aptly stated by v4... according as he hath chosen us in him. 'he' refers to god and 'him' refers to christ.
the god has given them (both jews and gentiles) gifts because god had chosen them in christ even before the world was created so that they may be holy before him in love.
this means that god has elected some (as indicated by the "us") in christ so that they may be holy. this is in other word is an election to salvation. for god has chosen some in christ, it means, the people who did not belong in 'us' were not among the chosen, the elected, the predestine.
this election in christ (of the 'us' gentiles and jews believers) was according to the good pleasure of his (god) will.
this means, it is god's pleasure... not man's will nor action but god's will. you are not a co-author in your selection in christ, into being adopted as a child of god by christ.
'his' refers to god. it is all his doings (his love, will, glory) that you are adopted/accepted in christ. not of your acts or decision to accept christ. it is his will and pleasure to the praise of the glory of his grace.
as adopted child of god in christ, christ was your sacrificial lamb.
the mystery of his will that was made known is the grand scheme of salvation.
just a review:
the god has blessed both jews and gentiles with spiritual blessings because god has chosen them in christ (election to salvation) before the world was made that they might have a holy life. they were chosen in christ (elected) according to god's will and pleasure, not of anybody's influence. they were adopted into the sonship to god's glory and praise, through the death of jesus, which is god's mystery's will and...
when the time comes, god will unite all believers, those who were dead, the living and the angels (in heaven) in 'him' (jesus).
'we' refers to jews...
refer above as to predestine to what....
and being predestined to salvation, god makes all things work, again, according to his own will.
'we' still refers to jews
'ye' refers to the gentiles.
review:
the god has blessed both jews and gentiles with spiritual blessings because god has chosen them in christ (election to salvation) before the world was made that they might have a holy life. they were chosen in christ (elected) according to god's will and pleasure, not of anybody's influence. they were adopted into the sonship to god's glory and praise, through the death of jesus, which is god's mystery's will and in the time to come, god will gather them all the believers, jews and gentiles, dead and alive, and angels in christ... of whom the jews have obtained an inheritance, of which the gentiles also believed and sealed by the hs.
the first verses tell that god predestined some to salvation according to his will through his son. the next verses tell that they were adopted to his sonship through the death of his son. it means that they were first elected to salvation, and then, god provided them the way to salvation which is the death of his son. by being elected, they believed and thus the adoption and the inheritance.
i hope that is clear.
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:[/QUOTE]
an opening, obviously. a greetings to the saints of ephesus
well, just so to mention, paul made the distinction between god and lord, who are two different persons. god is not the lord as indicated by comma and 'and'
another emphasis that the god is not jesus but jesus' father
this god blessed them (us) jews and gentiles believers with spiritual blessing, gifts, through christ.
why were they given gifts through christ?
as aptly stated by v4... according as he hath chosen us in him. 'he' refers to god and 'him' refers to christ.
the god has given them (both jews and gentiles) gifts because god had chosen them in christ even before the world was created so that they may be holy before him in love.
this means that god has elected some (as indicated by the "us") in christ so that they may be holy. this is in other word is an election to salvation. for god has chosen some in christ, it means, the people who did not belong in 'us' were not among the chosen, the elected, the predestine.
this election in christ (of the 'us' gentiles and jews believers) was according to the good pleasure of his (god) will.
this means, it is god's pleasure... not man's will nor action but god's will. you are not a co-author in your selection in christ, into being adopted as a child of god by christ.
'his' refers to god. it is all his doings (his love, will, glory) that you are adopted/accepted in christ. not of your acts or decision to accept christ. it is his will and pleasure to the praise of the glory of his grace.
as adopted child of god in christ, christ was your sacrificial lamb.
the mystery of his will that was made known is the grand scheme of salvation.
just a review:
the god has blessed both jews and gentiles with spiritual blessings because god has chosen them in christ (election to salvation) before the world was made that they might have a holy life. they were chosen in christ (elected) according to god's will and pleasure, not of anybody's influence. they were adopted into the sonship to god's glory and praise, through the death of jesus, which is god's mystery's will and...
when the time comes, god will unite all believers, those who were dead, the living and the angels (in heaven) in 'him' (jesus).
'we' refers to jews...
refer above as to predestine to what....
and being predestined to salvation, god makes all things work, again, according to his own will.
'we' still refers to jews
'ye' refers to the gentiles.
review:
the god has blessed both jews and gentiles with spiritual blessings because god has chosen them in christ (election to salvation) before the world was made that they might have a holy life. they were chosen in christ (elected) according to god's will and pleasure, not of anybody's influence. they were adopted into the sonship to god's glory and praise, through the death of jesus, which is god's mystery's will and in the time to come, god will gather them all the believers, jews and gentiles, dead and alive, and angels in christ... of whom the jews have obtained an inheritance, of which the gentiles also believed and sealed by the hs.
the first verses tell that god predestined some to salvation according to his will through his son. the next verses tell that they were adopted to his sonship through the death of his son. it means that they were first elected to salvation, and then, god provided them the way to salvation which is the death of his son. by being elected, they believed and thus the adoption and the inheritance.
i hope that is clear.
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Salamat sa explanation mo bro. Sa totoo lang in respect sa iyo ung mga sinabi mo ay pinaliwanag na din sa akin ng mga kapatiran ko and even by my pastor. What I am wondering is halos pare-pareho ung pattern at ginamit nyong verse which could be presume na isa lang pinanggalingan nito, kung nag-aral kayo ng theology maybe ito ung doktrinang natutunan at kung member naman kayo ng isang church, ito ung turo ng simbahan nyo.
Sinabi ko nga sa umpisa ng thread kong ito na di ko masasabing authority ako o dapat man lamang pakinggan sa mga ganitong klase ng issue. Uulitin ko 2 years pa lang akong christian at ung pagbabad ako sa salita ng Diyos ay masasabi kong halos kalahating taon pa lamang. Pero masasabi ko na sa panahong iyon ay parang akong uhaw na uhaw sa salita nya at nais ko itong maintindihan ng lubusan. Maaring di ko pa rin kayang mapantayan ung kaalaman at talino nyo sa mga bagay na ito pero ang sigurado ko at uulitin ko na hindi sa patagalan ang basehan kung hindi palaliman sa kanyang mga salita. Mababasa naman natin sa bible na walang imposible sa Diyos kapag ginusto nyang makaintindi ka ng kanyang salita kahit gaano ka pa kabago ay ibibigay nya sau ito.
Gaya ng mga una kong pagsagot sa mga komento nyo nais ko pa ring maging simple at madaling intindihin ang aking argumento sa sa mga bagay na ito upang di lamang ang mga malalalim ang kaalaman sa bibliya ang makasunod sa argumento ko maging ang mga katulad ko ring baguhan. Kung babasahin ko ang mga argumento nyo ay parang wala na akong dapat pang sabihin at tanggapin na lamang ang mga ito dahil sa husay at lalim ng mga ito. Pero ang napapansin ko lang ay parang pare-pareho ng ung pattern nyo. Nang tanggapin nyo ba ang issue na ito na once save na kayo, you are alway save ay nagdalawang isip man lamang ba kayo? Inisip nyo man lang ba na galing ba talaga ito sa Diyos o isa lamang itong doktrina na ginawa ng mga kinikilalang bible scholar ng mundong ito. Ito ba talaga ung tunay na kagustuhan ng Panginoon o isa lamang nga itong pinagsama-samang kaisipan na binuo upang mapalabas na ito talaga ang tunay na hangarin ng ating Amang lumikha.
Ang pagbabasa ng bibliya at pag-intindi nito ay di lamang binabatay sa isang verse o chapter. Kung may mga bagay na contradiction sa isang bagay ay dapat din itong ibangga at bigyan ng halaga para sa pag-unawa ng mga ito. Hindi porket nabasa natin katulad sa nabanggit mo kapatid na John 10:28-29 Binibigyan ko sila ng buhay na walang hanggan. Kailanmay hindi sila mapapahamak at hindi sila maagaw sa akin. Yes, ang verse na ito ay napakasarap marinig mula sa ating Diyos pero ang bagay ba na ito ay absolute na at dapat panghawakan na at maging kampante na ligtas na tayo? Sa verse na ito ay dapat din nating basahin ung naunang verse 27: "Nakikinig sa akin ang aking mga tupa ; nakikilala ko sila, at sumusunod sila sa akin."
Kung iintindihin natin ang salitang nakikinig at sumusunod ay nasa pang kasalukuyan at hindi ginamit ang salitang nakinig at sumunod at eto ung kundisyon ng verse 28 upang akuin at tanggapin natin ang pangako ng Diyos sa atin. Ang manatiling sumunod at makinig sa kanya. Same thing sa John 3:16. Sa john 14:6 naman totoo naman na siya lamang ang nag-iisang daan natin patungo sa ama, ang nag-iisang Diyos at nagkatawang tao na pwede lamang mamagitan sa tao at Diyos. Pero ang ibig ba sabihin nito dahil sya ang tagapagligtas ay ok na tayo. At dahil sa tinapos na nya sa krus ng kalbaryo ang kabayaran ng ating kasalanan ay ligtas na tayo. Bro may mga bagay pa rin tayong dapat gawin kahit alam na natin ang mga katotohanang ito, hindi ito absolute na binigay nya sa atin.
Alam naman nating ang lahat ng mga nakasulat sa bibliya ay kinasihan ng Diyos, ang ibig sabihin ang bawat isa ay may halaga at importansiya pero sa isyung ito mapanghawakan lamang na ligtas na tayo ay pilit nating kinakalimutan ang ibang mga verses na dapat din nating pagtuunan ng pansin. Sa mga sumusunod na verses Mateo 24:36-51, Mark 13:32-37 and luke 21:34-38 ay pinaalalahanan tayo na lagi tayong maging handa dahil walang nakakaalam ng takdang oras at pagdating Nya. Iniligay ang mga ito upang maging faithful tayo sa kanya sa lahat ng oras hanggat maari. Nandito rin ang Roma 11:21-22 na nagsasabi at nagpapaalala sa atin na di tayo dapat magyabang dahil kung ang mismong sanga ay pinutol, tayo pa kaya. At marami pang iba.
Ang punto lamang naman dito at isang maganda para sa ating mga christian ay mayroon tayong mga kalayaan na tanggapin at di tanggapin ang mga turo kahit ng ating mga pastor kung ito ay di naayon sa bibliya. Pero ang tanong ko lang diretsa ba itong tinuro ng ating Panginoon o maging ng mga apostol na sumulat sa ating bibliya na once were save, we are always save. Hindi bat ang mga turong hindi naman galing sa bibliya at nanggaling lamang sa mga tao ay mali para sa ating mga christian?
Ang huling katanungan ko lamang na gustong iwan sa inyong lahat ay ano ang pinagkaiba bilang isang christian na may turong may tiyak tayong kaligtasan kumpara sa hindi naniniwala dito na ang pinaniniwalaan lamang ay dapat maging faithful tayo hanggang huli kung nais nating makasama ang ating nag-iisang hukom (na tanging nakakaalam kung tayo ba ay ligtas o hindi).
God bless po sa inyong lahat!!!!!!
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Ang haba ng mga sagot.
TS kelangan mo lang ng 3 fundamentals para masabi mong Tama o Hindi.
Para math narin. If positive yan tama and if Negative naman kapag mali.
Simulan natin.
1. What is Your Intention? (Positive or Negative Answer)
2. What is Your Action? (Positive or Negative Answer)
3. What is the Possible Result? (Positive or Negative Answer)
Example po about robin hood.
1. What is his intention? (+) To help poor people
2. What is his actions? (-) Nag-nanakaw sa mga mayaman
3. What is the possible result? (+) Poor people are happy and Busog
Answer is:
(1)Positive + (2) Negative + (3) Positive = Negative.
Try to relate it sa topic. =)
TS kelangan mo lang ng 3 fundamentals para masabi mong Tama o Hindi.
Para math narin. If positive yan tama and if Negative naman kapag mali.
Simulan natin.
1. What is Your Intention? (Positive or Negative Answer)
2. What is Your Action? (Positive or Negative Answer)
3. What is the Possible Result? (Positive or Negative Answer)
Example po about robin hood.
1. What is his intention? (+) To help poor people
2. What is his actions? (-) Nag-nanakaw sa mga mayaman
3. What is the possible result? (+) Poor people are happy and Busog
Answer is:
(1)Positive + (2) Negative + (3) Positive = Negative.
Try to relate it sa topic. =)
Last edited:
an opening, obviously. a greetings to the saints of ephesus
well, just so to mention, paul made the distinction between god and lord, who are two different persons. god is not the lord as indicated by comma and 'and'
another emphasis that the god is not jesus but jesus' father
this god blessed them (us) jews and gentiles believers with spiritual blessing, gifts, through christ.
why were they given gifts through christ?
as aptly stated by v4... according as he hath chosen us in him. 'he' refers to god and 'him' refers to christ.
the god has given them (both jews and gentiles) gifts because god had chosen them in christ even before the world was created so that they may be holy before him in love.
this means that god has elected some (as indicated by the "us") in christ so that they may be holy. this is in other word is an election to salvation. for god has chosen some in christ, it means, the people who did not belong in 'us' were not among the chosen, the elected, the predestine.
this election in christ (of the 'us' gentiles and jews believers) was according to the good pleasure of his (god) will.
this means, it is god's pleasure... not man's will nor action but god's will. you are not a co-author in your selection in christ, into being adopted as a child of god by christ.
'his' refers to god. it is all his doings (his love, will, glory) that you are adopted/accepted in christ. not of your acts or decision to accept christ. it is his will and pleasure to the praise of the glory of his grace.
as adopted child of god in christ, christ was your sacrificial lamb.
the mystery of his will that was made known is the grand scheme of salvation.
just a review:
the god has blessed both jews and gentiles with spiritual blessings because god has chosen them in christ (election to salvation) before the world was made that they might have a holy life. they were chosen in christ (elected) according to god's will and pleasure, not of anybody's influence. they were adopted into the sonship to god's glory and praise, through the death of jesus, which is god's mystery's will and...
when the time comes, god will unite all believers, those who were dead, the living and the angels (in heaven) in 'him' (jesus).
'we' refers to jews...
refer above as to predestine to what....
and being predestined to salvation, god makes all things work, again, according to his own will.
'we' still refers to jews
'ye' refers to the gentiles.
review:
the god has blessed both jews and gentiles with spiritual blessings because god has chosen them in christ (election to salvation) before the world was made that they might have a holy life. they were chosen in christ (elected) according to god's will and pleasure, not of anybody's influence. they were adopted into the sonship to god's glory and praise, through the death of jesus, which is god's mystery's will and in the time to come, god will gather them all the believers, jews and gentiles, dead and alive, and angels in christ... of whom the jews have obtained an inheritance, of which the gentiles also believed and sealed by the hs.
the first verses tell that god predestined some to salvation according to his will through his son. the next verses tell that they were adopted to his sonship through the death of his son. it means that they were first elected to salvation, and then, god provided them the way to salvation which is the death of his son. by being elected, they believed and thus the adoption and the inheritance.
i hope that is clear.[/QUOTE]
Una sa lahat ay hindi cellphone ang gamit ko. Mabagal lang talga ang connection dito kaya diko masyado ma arrange ang mga paragraph.
===well, just so to mention, paul made the distinction between god and lord, who are two different persons. god is not the lord as indicated by comma and 'and'
======
The doctrine of trinity is another matter. i won't focus on this, but i'll give you John chapter 1.
=========
this means that god has elected some (as indicated by the "us") in christ so that they may be holy. this is in other word is an election to salvation. for god has chosen some in christ, it means, the people who did not belong in 'us' were not among the chosen, the elected, the predestine.
=========
Dito ka mali. verse 4, clearly states that this is not salvation but of godly life. The believers are to live a godly life.
=====================
are you some kind of a stup*** idio*.
how could you choose god if you do not seek him?
======================
No, you're the one of a kind stu*** idio*.
Ang simple ng sagot ng na iyan. Paano mo malalaman na bay bagong model ng cellphone? hindi natin hinanap ang mga hi-tech na celfon kasi kontinto na tayo noon sa cellphone natin. Sa tingin mo ano ang purpose ng advertisements?Nalaman natin at nag-decide tayo na bilhin ang cellphone. Ano ang purpose ng NEWS sa TV? Gospel is called the good news. It's up to us if we will believe the news or not.
And don't answer a biblical passage with logic, answer logic with logic, answer verse with verse. Kung sinabi diyan na 'I have chosen you that ye bring forth fruit' wala ka ng magagawa dun. Pinili niya ang mga apostol niya na ituro at ipaalam ang daan sa lahat ang daan ng kaligtasan.
===================
Kung logic naman ang pag-uusapan, i want to hear from you on this.
"moreover, lahat ay pupunta sa impyerno. for the old and the new
testament meant hell as grave."
Do you think God would send his Son to die shameful and painful death on the cross just to prevent people from entering into the grave?
Do you think the Apostles spent their lives proclaiming the Gospel and teaching people to repent just to prevent them from entering the cemetery?
==========
will receive? dint you read the word "predestined"?
how did you understand the word "predestined?"
===========
English teacher ka cguro or dictionary?
how did you understand the word 'by'?
The believers are predestined. Only the believers. Don't forget that this letter was written for the believers only.
==================
ay, nagiging technical semantic ka na ata. at nawala ata ang exegesis mo.
================
Ayaw mo lang tanggapin na tama ang interpretasyon ko.
===================
Rom 9:11-13 "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
I told you, predestination is about service. Kitang-kita oh!, 'serve the younger'. The believers are called to serve. Mahirap be intindihin yan. God elects, God predestined believers to service, to live a godly life, to be like Christ (image of His Son,
Rom 9:15-16
Ang context ng chapter na ito ay simple. The point is to show that the gospel message is extended not only to Jews but to Gentiles. As Gentiles, we are not part of Israels blessings and covenants but through Christ, we are now partakers of the promise. Eph.2:19-21.
========
wehh? we refers to believers? oh god!
Para kanino ba sinulat ni Paul ang letter na toh? Sa yo ba na hindi naniniwala sa Diyos? No. This letter is to the Saints at Ephesus.
=========
magkaiba ata ang we at ye.
(Pati ba naman ito?)
Ye refers to believers. Sinabi ko we kasi kabilang ako sa 'YE' for I am a believer also.
=============
hala, ano nang nangyayri sa iyo? inaanalisa mo ba pinopost mo?
v4 ng pinost mo sa itaas.
This is just the summary of the Ephesians 1:1-13.
====================
===============
hahaha. you said no one is elected to be in christ and provided a verse that only one is foreordained before the foundation of the world, which is christ.
the wrong pressumptions here are:
1. you proposed god did not elect someone to be in christ before the world started and followed with
2. that god had only prepared one before the foundation of the world
====================
Basahin mo mabuti... verse 20 says 'Who was' this clearly refers to Christ. but was manifest in this last times.
==============
v4.
'that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:'
this means that god has elected some (as indicated by the "us") in christ so that they may be holy. this is in other word is an election to salvation. for god has chosen some in christ, it means, the people who did not belong in 'us' were not among the chosen, the elected, the predestine.
=====
Ang lakas ng angas mo. Pano naging electio to salvation to?
'Be ye holy of I am holy'. Ang layo ng interpretation mo.
Saan mo ba nakuha ang idea na 'us' means 'some' who are elected? Gawa-gawa mo lang yan ah.
Klaro naman na this letter was addressed to the saints.
Eph.2:10,basahin mo yan para maintindihan mo ang context ng chapter.
Dito na muna ang answer ko. I starting to think that I'm wasting my time here,just like trying to sell a computer to a snail.
By the way, I want to hear your answer on this:
==============
Sabi mo, accept and repent are works because they are verb.
Here's the proof that in the Bible they are not counted as
workd. Para hindi mag-assume na naman, dahil sa english lesson
mo.
Romans Chapter 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining
to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to
glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it
was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace,
but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that
justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man,
unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or
upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was
reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in
uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the
righteousness of the faith which he had yet being
uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that
believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness
might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the
circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith
of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world,
was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but
through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made
void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is
no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the
end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only
which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of
Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many
nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth
the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they
were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the
father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So
shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body
now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet
the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but
was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was
able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was
imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe
on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for
our justification.
Yan, ang apostle Paul na mismo nag explain sayo na hindi work
and pag-accept kay Jesus Christ. Hindi mo kasi binabasa ka
hindi ka maka-intindi.
====================. Thanks.
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Paano ka magiging faithful kung in the first place hindi mo alam ang gagawin mo? Hindi mo alam ang pinanghahawakan mo? Ano ba ang ituturo mo sa mga tao kung wala ka ngang alam?
pakiayos ang mga post mo. you do not need internet connection sa pag-aayos ng mga post. you need internet connectionpag magpopost ka ng reply. yung mga verses mo sa baba, dapat dugtong dugtong yan, hindi yan tula para line by line. copy paste na nga di mo pa ayusin. nakakabagot magbasa kung ganyan.
saka you can refute line by line or by paragraph sentence or phrase, wag yung laktaw laktaw
aye. agree.
paano mo naiintindihan ang 'pinili tayo kay kristo'? 'binilang tayong anak ng dios kay kristo'?
hindi ba yan kaligtasan?
ang sabi ko, 'are you somekind of a stupid idiot' ay tanong. ang sagot jan ay oo o hinde. hindi naman yan declarative statement e. masyado kang hot. but i asked that because your caliber is seemingly horrible.
wag daw logic e ano ginagawa mo? syllogism? stup** f**l! (dont worry, that's not you, it's just an expression)
kontento ka na pala sa cp mo bat mo pa pag-iinteresan ang bagong modelong ni-aadvertize?
kahit araw-araw na ina-advertise yan kung hindi ka interesado, wala kang paki-alam.
paano ka magiging interesado kung hindi mo naman pinapakialaman?
therefore, "no one seek god!"
ano kaya ang sabi ng propeta:
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
refer to: acts 28: 26-27
hahaha. my goodness!
jn 3:16 lang gagamitin natin
ano daw ang mangyayari sa 'mananampalataya sa kanya?'
everlasting life.
so christ came para ang mananampalataya sa kanyang (predestined to be in christ) ay magkaroon ng buhay ng wlang hanggan.
and yung hindi mananampalataya?
"...shall perish..." at ano ang perish? annihilation, tama po ba?
kung tama ang konsepto mo ng hell, then are there people now in hell?
hindi ba lugi sila (which will make your god not just) dahil may mga tao na sa impyerno at naghihirap e antagal pa ng paghuhukom? ilang libong-taon na silang naghihirap mulang nung B.C.E?
awww.. the just god condemned people to a not just punishment!
kumakaliwa ka nanaman.
di mo pa sinagot ang tanong ko. 'ano ang pagkakaintindi mo sa predestination?'
'by?' aling 'by'?
are you agreeing that the believers are predestined?
wehh? refuted na nga argumento mo. lol
nagbabasa ka ba? o nagbabsa ka pero tumatalon ang utak mo?
unawain mo nga yung eph. 1 kahit mag focus ka lang sa 5.
predestined to be adopted as sons of god
terrible! terrible!
di mo nga talaga binabsa ang mga post ko o di mo inaanalisa. kung binasa mo, di ka magtatanong ng mga ganitong tanong.
haist...
'we' jew, 'ye' gentiles who are believers... predestined....
therefore... 'us' believiers gentiles and jews alike were predestined to be adopted as sons of god...
ang 'tayo' ba jan ay buong mundo? 'us' as youve said refers to the saints, beleivers, then it does not mean everyone but 'some'.
think! think! think!
am strting to think am talking to a wall...
before i put some points on this, i'd like you to answer this question...
is faith a gift? or a decision?
if it is a decision, then can you have pride on this that god justifices you for having a faith?
or
if it is a gift, then do you have anything to boast to god when you are justified for having a faith?
ponder! ponder!
and
ponder!
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Bro paki linaw mo nga kung ano ibig mo sabihin, salamat
pakiayos ang mga post mo. you do not need internet connection sa pag-aayos ng mga post. you need internet connectionpag magpopost ka ng reply. yung mga verses mo sa baba, dapat dugtong dugtong yan, hindi yan tula para line by line. copy paste na nga di mo pa ayusin. nakakabagot magbasa kung ganyan.
saka you can refute line by line or by paragraph sentence or phrase, wag yung laktaw laktaw
==============================
Nag-aasume ka na naman na copy paste ang mga reply ko. minsan kasi sa bagal ng koneksyon, ay hindi ma lod ang buong page ng symbianize. kadalasan ay sira ang layout na makikita mo sa browser kaya't minsan di masyado maganda ang pag-kaka arrange ng paragraph, 2nd, dahil nasa office ako at pumupuslit ng access, kaya pinapaliit ko ang browser para di mahalata na nag-oonline ako kaya di ko masyado makita ang buong hitsura ng reply ko lalo na't may kahabaan pa ito.
============================
aye. agree.
=========
ok
=====================
paano mo naiintindihan ang 'pinili tayo kay kristo'? 'binilang tayong anak ng dios kay kristo'?
=====================
ayan, dapat magtanong ka kung paano maiintindihan pag wala kang naiintindihan. Una, God promised that whosoever will receive His Son will become a part of His family. Kapag unbeliever ka, obvious naman na hindi ka pa part ng family ni God di ba?, so kailan ka naging part ng family niya? After you accepted his Son. John 1:12. All believers are predestined to become a part of His family through adoption, because there's only one begotten Son.
To become a part of His family is one of the blessings a believer will receive aside from salvation. Salvation when a person no longer have to suffer the second death after he dies because of sin.
===================
hindi ba yan kaligtasan?
====================
To become a part of the family is another thing, it is promised by God, that a person once accepts Christ, he will receive this heavenly blessings aside from salvation:
1. To partaker of God's promises to Israel. We will be united with God's chosen people to carry out the Lord's ministry. As you can see, believer's are predestined not to salvation but to service. Anywhere in the Bible, you found the idea of predestination, it is always involved in service.
2. Adoption
3. The Holy Spirit
4. Candidacy for baptism
5.to partake the Lord's supper
6. Justification
7. Sanctification
==================
ang sabi ko, 'are you somekind of a stupid idiot' ay tanong. ang sagot jan ay oo o hinde. hindi naman yan declarative statement e. masyado kang hot. but i asked that because your caliber is seemingly horrible.
====================
Ang sagot ko ay No. Di mo ba binasa? Ang sagot ko ay No. At dinagdagan ko ng declarative statement because because your caliber is terrible.
===================
wag daw logic e ano ginagawa mo? syllogism? stup** f**l! (dont worry, that's not you, it's just an expression)
========================
If you noticed, which apparently not, I always support my answers with Bible passages. i only answer logically to logical questions. And i expect from an intelligent reader to answer my logical questions with logical answer, not with some kind of stu*** questions.
===================
kontento ka na pala sa cp mo bat mo pa pag-iinteresan ang bagong modelong ni-aadvertize?
======================
Dahil, nag-pa promise ito ng mas maraming benefits kaysa luma kung cp. Kahit kontento ka na, kung may makikita kang mas beneficial, it's up to you to decide kung pipiliin mo ba ang bago o hinde, bakit bibili ang iba ng bagong cellphone kahit may cellphone na sila? . Kung kontento ka na sa cp mo at ayaw mo palitan, bahala ka, dahil marami iba jan na kapag may bago, ay bibilhin talaga lalo na't may libreng internet.
============================
kahit araw-araw na ina-advertise yan kung hindi ka interesado, wala kang paki-alam.
=============================
kung ang lahat ng tao sa mundo ay close minded, marahil totoo ang sagot mo pero ang tanong ko, ano ang purpose ng advertisement? simple lang, to catch attention and interest of the people. bakit may-ads? dahil ang mga tao ay wala pang interes dahil marahil hindi pa nila nabalitaan ang bago, at kailangan ipaalam diba.
==============================
paano ka magiging interesado kung hindi mo naman pinapakialaman?
therefore, "no one seek god!"
==============================
Ang mga tao ay walang interes tumira sa evacuation center, pero pag-nagaanounce ang radyo,tv, na may paparating na bagyo at kailangan ng lumikas, bakit sila lumikas? kasi naniniwala sila sa news. may mga taong matigas ang ulo, kaya't naiiwan sa baha.
===========================
======================
ano kaya ang sabi ng propeta:
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
refer to: acts 28: 26-27
================================
Hahaha, and you're saying that this people are programmed to not to believe on Paul? The statement is very clear that Isiah
was sent to these people who in the first placed rejected God and continue on their sins. There God had taken away their understanding for even if they understood already in the first place, it did not benefit for the problem is in the heart. The prophecy was fulfilled, people understood the simple truth e.g, do not bow to graven images,. But still they ignore these truths and deny like they don't understand at all. So God will take away their understanding.
================
hahaha. my goodness!
jn 3:16 lang gagamitin natin
ano daw ang mangyayari sa 'mananampalataya sa kanya?'
everlasting life.
so christ came para ang mananampalataya sa kanyang (predestined to be in christ) ay magkaroon ng buhay ng wlang hanggan.
=======================
God did inject people some kind of a program that will activate on the given time. Ito ang nakikita ko sa mga arguments mo. Which is entirely alien in the Bible. Para saan ba ang mga turo ni Jesus? Bakit hindi lahat ng tao ay naniniwala sa kanya? Jesus preached to the Pharisees, the rich young ruler, and even at His dying moment people denied Him? Are these programmed to not to believe on him? It will be a waste of time if ang Diyos mismo ang may kagustuhan na hindi maniniwala ang mga ito in the first place.
Romans chapter 10:1. Nagdadasal si Paul para sa kaligtasan.
2Pet 3:9 says that God's will for everyone is for them to be saved therefore everyone is called to repent.
=================
and yung hindi mananampalataya?
"...shall perish..." at ano ang perish? annihilation, tama po ba?
========================
Mali po. Maling mali. Based on your arguments,hindi mo siguor binasa ang Revelation ano? i think you're a former Jehova's witness, but i'm not sure. 'doctrine of Hell and Second death is another thing', let's stick to the subject.
=========================
kung tama ang konsepto mo ng hell, then are there people now in hell?
Yes, at mapapabilang ka sa kanila soon, the Bible says.
hindi ba lugi sila (which will make your god not just) dahil may mga tao na sa impyerno at naghihirap e antagal pa ng paghuhukom? ilang libong-taon na silang naghihirap mulang nung B.C.E?
==========================
Kaya nga hinihikayat ang lahat na magsibalik sila sa Panginoon. Tanggapin nila si Kristo para hindi sila mapaparusahan. Did you know that after Chriat died, he suffered in Hell 3 days? Yes, he was there for he bore the sins of mankind.
=======================
awww.. the just god condemned people to a not just punishment!
=========================
This is to show how Holy God is. And we should take His words seriously.
=============================
kumakaliwa ka nanaman.
===================
Not a dict but a compass?
============================
di mo pa sinagot ang tanong ko. 'ano ang pagkakaintindi mo sa predestination?'
==============
i'll define it in one word. 'marked'. They are marked according to the will of God.
=================
'by?' aling 'by'?
by Christ. basahin mo ang verse. ano ang pag-iintindi mo sa 'by'?
========================================
are you agreeing that the believers are predestined?
========================================
Yes, i agree. Because only believers are predestined to serve God. only believers are predestined and marked by God to recieve the Holy Spirit, to be justified, to be sanctified, to become a part of His family. To the lost sinners, God will never include them in his family. Mahirap ba talaga intindihin to? Ganyan ba kababaw ang pag-iisip ng mga atis? Pati ang Diyos dinediny na nila.
===============================
wehh? refuted na nga argumento mo. lol
===========================
in your dreams.
=======================
nagbabasa ka ba? o nagbabsa ka pero tumatalon ang utak mo?
unawain mo nga yung eph. 1 kahit mag focus ka lang sa 5.
predestined to be adopted as sons of god
===================================
to be adopted as sons of God is another thing, salvation is another thing, a person is destined to receive these heavenly blessings once he is in Christ. God also promise that we are partakers of the blessings God promised to Abraham. Everyone will be part of His Holy Nation even if he is not a Jew. That's the context of Romans chapter 9.
bakit ako magfofocus sa five? paano mo maiintindihan ang context ng verse kung hindi mo babasahin ang puno't dulo nito. Yan ang isa sa mga problema mo. Ang gusto mo lang basahin ay ang verse na u assumed in agreements sa mga pinanindigan mo.
Example. Ecclesiates 1:2. kung babashin mo ng pauli-ulit yan, aakalain mo talaga na ang sinasabi ni Solomon ay lahat ng bagay ay walang kabuluhan.
==================================
terrible! terrible!
di mo nga talaga binabsa ang mga post ko o di mo inaanalisa. kung binasa mo, di ka magtatanong ng mga ganitong tanong.
haist...
FYI, lahat ng verse na binibigay mo, binabasa ko at binibigay ko ang aking interpretasyon nito.
====================
'we' jew, 'ye' gentiles who are believers... predestined....
======================
Lightyears away
Siguro hindi mo binasa ang verse one ng Ephesians chapter 1 no?
'we' means the beleivers including Paul. 'ye' technically the believers at Ephesus, at can be applied to refer to all believers. Excluding Paul for Paul is the one who wrote the letter for them to know these things, Paul already knew these things. 'us' all the believers, jew or gentiles include Paul.
Simple analysis. I Paul and apostle of Jesus, wrote this letter for you('ye') to know the we(including me/Paul) are given heavenly blessings. Yes, All of us(all the believers) who are in Christ.
Ba't ang layo ng interpretasyon, kinakalawang na ata ang English mo ah.
==============================
therefore... 'us' believiers gentiles and jews alike were predestined to be adopted as sons of god...
ang 'tayo' ba jan ay buong mundo? 'us' as youve said refers to the saints, beleivers, then it does not mean everyone but 'some'.
===================================
Yes tama ka dito. some are predestined, but not to salvation, but to service. Salvation is for all. Predestination to service, is for believers only.
think! think! think!
=================
am strting to think am talking to a wall,...
at least walls have eyes and ears.
snails don't have money and hands. xD
===============
before i put some points on this, i'd like you to answer this question...
is faith a gift? or a decision?
===================
A decision. A decision to accept that Christ is indeed the Savior.
======================
if it is a decision, then can you have pride on this that god justifices you for having a faith?
======================
no, pride does not comes from faith, for faith is spiritual. pride comes from the flesh which is physical as differentiated in Romans chapter 8.
Faith is in line with Hope and Love.
===========================
Romans chapter 4 and chapter 9 confirms that faith is our way of accepting the promise. And is not counted as works, therefore it does not deny the grace mentioned in Ehp. 2:8.
Take a look at Romans 9:32.
Hebrews chapter 11 gives us the deep definition of Faith.
==========
or
if it is a gift, then do you have anything to boast to god when you are justified for having a faith?
==============================
Salvation is the gift. We recieve the gift by faith/believing that Christ indeed is the Son of God, died for our sins to save us from Hell, and rose from the dead.
How do we get pride on accepting that we are hopeless sinners and our only chance is to accept His Son who died in our stead?
Romans 10:9-11.
If someone will die instead of you(let's say a friend, a brother or a sister or even one of your parents, or even just s stranger) because of your sins, will you feel proud on that?
Me, no of course. I will feel ashamed and I will thank that someone for saving my life. And I will try not to do the things anymore, those that cost him/her his/her life.
=================
ok, i've given you my side on this.
I hope you will answer my arguments especially on Romans chapter 4.
Thanks.
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